Dinosaurs in History

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Readers of The Long Guest have noticed that it features some “dragons.”

These are not the kind that breathe fire, collect treasure, talk in riddles, and sail through the sky on golden wings. Lord knows, I’ve got nothing against that kind. But The Long Guest is not that sort of story. It’s a speculative novel about what life might have been like in the very ancient world. Its “dragons” are basically animals, part of the milieu through which the characters move as they leave Babel.

They are, of course, dinosaurs. Below is some of the research that prompted me to include them.

Wait, ‘Dragons’ Are Dinosaurs?

The evidence from paleontology is complex, incomplete, hotly debated and far, far beyond the scope of this article. But there is plenty of historical evidence that human beings occasionally saw, and even might have interacted with, various kinds of dinosaur. Often they called them “dragons.”

Dragon ‘legends’ exist all over the world. For example, when my husband and I lived in Borneo, there were stories of a long, skinny water dragon (‘naga’) that lived in the rivers. This dragon was part of the local mythology, but it was also believed to be an actual animal. After all, the other prominent animal in the local mythology was the hornbill (a bird similar to a toucan), which still lives in the interior of Borneo in great numbers.

Dinosaurs in Premodern Art

Let’s start with depictions of dinosaurs in premodern art. All the examples I am going to give below appear in the context of art that features many other animals found in the natural world.

On Ta Prohm temple in Cambodia, there is an image that appears to be a stegosaurus alongside depictions of a monkey, deer, and parrots. On Kachina Bridge in Utah, the Anasazi petroglyphs include an animal that looks like an Apatosaurus. Among the petroglyphs at Havai Supai Canyon, near the Grand Canyon, is an image that appears to be a dinosaur with a long neck, standing upright and balancing on its tail.

Then there are the tens of thousands of small handmade clay sculptures that have been dug out of the ground near the foot of El Toro mountain in Acambaro, Mexico. Besides sculptures of people, musical instruments, idols, and so on, there are – you guessed it – hundreds of recognizable dinosaurs.

Finally, we have the Ica burial stones of Peru. These have images incised on them, including lots of dinosaur images. Interestingly, they show sauropod-like creatures with spikes on their backs. When I was a kid, sauropods were shown as large, grey, slow, and reptilian, with smooth backs. But apparently, in 1992 we moderns figured out that sauropods had “dermal spines.”

Visual images, especially petroglyphs, can be hard to interpret. As you might expect, the sculptures and images above are beloved of creation scientists and have been the subject of debunking by those who hold that dinosaurs did not survive to overlap with people. Sometimes the debunking takes the form of “That’s not really a dinosaur”; other times, as in the case of the Acambaro sculptures, the refrain is, “It must be a recent hoax.”

In the links above, I have tried to include a mix of both sympathetic and skeptical sources. I wanted you to be able to see the images; when possible, I took you to a skeptical source so that you can verify that the image in fact exists. Using the links above, the curious can find out more about the controversies (and with prehistory, the controversies never end).

But now we turn from visual images to less ambiguous accounts in the form of writing.

Historical Evidence for Dinosaurs

Once we start taking dragon ‘legends’ seriously as possible historical accounts of dinosaurs, we start seeing that there are a lot of accounts to consider. Here are just four:

The ancient Chinese, of course, had a whole cosmology built around different kinds of dragons. So much could be said, but I just want to note two things here. First, Chinese dragons are strongly associated with the Emperor because, among other reasons, of a legend of an early emperor, Xia Yu, who was helped by a wise dragon. (Note in the link above that Xia Yu’s story has other features common to the early chapters of Genesis. He lives hundreds of years; he is a founder and a culture bringer; he helps tame the dangerous floods. He is also an ancestor and founder who is later worshiped as a deity, as seems to have been the case with Nimrod.)

Secondly, Chinese dragons differ from Western dragons because they tend to be bearded. Some depictions even have a mane similar to a lion’s. This could be a case of combining characteristics of different animals, which is explicitly done in Chinese dragon mythology, but — just a thought — it could also be a depiction of hair-like feathers. “Hairy” dragons made no sense as dinosaurs until a few years ago, when we started discovering that many dinosaurs had quills or even feathers. See the following links: First Dinosaur Tail Found Preserved in Amber; Top 10 Dinosaurs that Aren’t What They Were; Fossils found in Siberia suggest all Dinosaurs had feathers.

Speaking of feathered dinosaurs: myths about, and worship of, a feathered serpent go way back in a variety of Mesoamerican cultures. This feathered serpent is called Kukulkan in Mayan, but is better known by his Nahuatl name of Quetzalcoatl. He even has a pterosaur named after him, though in reconstructions it looks more like a big bird than like a winged snake. (But compare this myth to the Hebrew “seraph serpents.”)

Continuing with the ancient Hebrew, here is a passage from the book of Job: “Look at the behemoth, which I [God] made along with you [Job] and which feeds on grass like an ox. What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! His tail sways like a cedar (!); the sinews of his thighs are close-knit. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron. … Under the lotus plants he lies, hidden among the reeds in the marsh. … When the river rages, he is not alarmed …” (Job 40:15-23)

This description, particularly the tail swaying like a cedar, sounds like some kind of sauropod. For comparison, in the chapter before this God has given some poetic, but accurate, descriptions of the behavior of mountain goats; does; wild donkeys; wild oxen; ostriches; war horses, hawks, and eagles.

Job, by the way, apparently lived in the Ancient Near East not too long after Babel, if we go by his lifespan. According to the book of Job, he lived another 140 years after the events he is famous for. In Genesis 11, we see life spans of roughly 200 years becoming commonplace some time between Babel and Abraham. This is also the time period in which my book is set.

And now, we come to my favorite: dinosaurs in Beowulf. For this analysis, I owe Bill Cooper, author of After the Flood (1995).   His book has an entire chapter devoted to zoological terms in Beowulf. Among many other rich ethnological and linguistic details, Cooper points out that in the original Anglo-Saxon, Grendel is nowhere referred to as a “troll.” In fact, ‘Grendel’ appears to be not a personal name but a name for a species: there are place-names in England such as “Grendeles Mere” (Grendel’s Lake), Grindles Bec, and Grendeles Pyt. There is even Grindelwald (“Grendelwood”) in Switzerland. (!)

Looking at the characteristics of Grendel as described in Beowulf:

  • He is in “the shape of a man, though twisted” and “more huge than any human being.” In other words, large and bipedal.
  • He is a “mearcstapa” (a marsh-stepper), who stalks the marshes.
  • He is a nocturnal predator (a “sceadugenga” — shadow-goer).
  • He is a “muthbona,” one who slays with his mouth. He is able quickly to devour human beings (once, 15 in one night). This would be difficult if he had a humanoid type of head and jaw.
  • Hrothgar’s warriors have been unable to kill Grendel for 12 years, and he is said to be invulnerable to ordinary weapons.
  • The way Beowulf kills him is to grip him by his “claws,” at which point Grendel, realizing he is in trouble, tries to get away. But Beowulf twists Grendel’s arm off at the shoulder and Grendel runs off to bleed to death.
  • Later, when Beowulf beheads Grendel’s corpse, it takes four men to carry the head home on a spear (this is my own observation, not Cooper’s).
  • And another of my own: Grendel and his mother are both referred to as having “locks,” but see the discussion above about feathers or spines.

After offering all this evidence, Cooper doesn’t even bother to name the dinosaur. “Is there a predatory animal from the fossil record known to us, who had two massive hindlegs and two comparatively puny forelimbs? There are several such species.” (page 159)

Thus, four different streams of historical record that I think may be more than myth.

I am not suggesting that every story of a dragon is to be taken seriously as a sober historical record of a dinosaur encounter. Fables have been invented about dragons, just as fables have been invented about other animals that have captured the human imagination (i.e., nearly all of them). But this does not invalidate every historical account. No one thinks that foxes do not exist because of Aesop’s story of the fox and the grapes. No one thinks that whales do not exist because of Moby Dick or Pinocchio.

But Do They Breathe Fire?

The “dragons” in my books do not breathe fire. However, I have nothing in principle against the idea of an animal that could. After all, this world of ours contains the electric eel, the bombardier beetle, bat radar, bio-luminescent beaches, and the platypus, which apparently is able with its bill to detect electric fields put off by living things and so home in on its prey. Since all these things are possible, surely an animal could have existed that could expel superheated liquid, gas, or even – who knows? – actual fire. The process that allowed it to do this would likely be chemically based and so perhaps not visible in a fossil.

Dragons in The Long Guest

Dragons in my first book appear as part of the milieu, not as characters. Since they do not play a major role, I can mention them without spoilers.

Early in the book, two of the men go on a hunting/scouting trip. They observe a duckbill-type dragon with a crest with pink coloring. On the way back, they have an encounter with another dragon of the raptor type, which is hunting a wild boar that they are also hunting.

Much later in the book, the tribe has crossed Mongolia and has almost reached what is now the Liao River (home of the “pig dragon” artifacts). There they have a friendly encounter with a group of strangers who are capturing a dragon to take home to their king. The “dragon” in this scene is a Triceratops-like creature that sports dermal spines, blue-and-gold feathers on its crest (because why not?), and smooth feathers over the rest of its body. (My day was made, once about ten years ago, when I read in a newspaper that a Triceratops had been found covered in feathers. I now can’t track down the source … but it’s too late. Feathered triceratops/Chinese pig dragon has already made it into the book.)

Loosely Related Update

A long time ago, Antarctica had a temperate or tropical climate, lots of animal life, and this cute little reptile.

Sources

Butt, Kyle and Eric Lyons. Dinosaurs Unleashed: The True Story About Dinosaurs and Humans. Apologetics Press, Inc., 230 Landmark Drive, Montgomery, Alabama, 1st ed. 2004, 2nd ed. 2008.

Cooper, Bill. After the Flood: The early post-flood history of Europe traced back to Noah. New Wine Press, PO Box 17, Chichester, West Sussex, England, 1995. The creatures in Beowulf are discussed in Chapter 11, p.146 ff.

Kleeman, Terry & Barrett, Tracey.  The Ancient Chinese World.  New York: Oxford University Press, 2005.

Out of Babel, the movie

Some of you may be aware that a while back, I sold my url outofbabel dot com to someone else. Well, what have they done with it?

https://outofbabel.com/

They are making a really cool movie that is due to come in out 2026.

No, it’s not based on my books in any way, but it has all the themes of my series, turned up to 11. I mean to say, if you click on the link above, you will see that their web site features American Indians fighting a dinosaur. Things do not get cooler than that, and as it turns out, they also do not get better historically supported.

Here is a quote from their FAQs section:

The Walam Olum or “Red Record,” which is central to our movie, is very much not alone from multiple Native American historical narratives that provide a clear and consistent telling of giants—especially giants associated with the mound builders and earth works, of which there are tens of thousands in America. The Lenni Lenape’s account of the Nephilim is central to their history (see the “snake people” and the makowini, translated “big men” that existed before and after their Flood account, were part of the reason for the Flood, matching our Bible history). See the Glyphs in Book 2 and Glyphs 1-2 in Book 3. Several other historical documents also mention giants affiliated with tribes around the Lenni-Lenape people.

In other words, these people are kindred spirits, which is why they wanted to buy my url in the first place.

My little url is all grown up, and I couldn’t be prouder.

Still buy my books, I mean. They have their own peculiar charm. But by all means, go and see this movie too.

These cool kids also have a YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/c/GenesisApologetics

And a previous movie about the Flood: https://genesisapologetics.com/ark/

Puzzling Questions at the Dinosaur Museum

What are these extra fishbone looking thingies on the side of the t-rex’s neck?

Look, this little guy has them too.

And so does this sauropod.

Are we sure we have these attached at the correct angle? Is it possible the dinosaurs could swell out their neck like a grouse or something? Should we be reconstructing them more like birds, with thicker, sleeker appearances?

Speaking of which… that’s basically a chicken foot, right?

Also … I’m not an expert, but I am weirded out by how big of a shoulder blade t-rex seems to need for his tiny hands. Were there possibly wings attached to these?

Basically chickens, amirite?

The chicken status of dinosaurs has been confirmed. They ate gastroliths, which are stones that help an animal digest, just as hens do.

Basically a moose .

A huge, terrifying moose.

I’m sure he looked better with skin on.

Speaking of what we call things, how are we supposed to keep up with prehistoric animals if they keep changing their names in this manner?

Now let’s look at some really cool petrified “wood.” Some of the specimens actually look like modern hardwood grain, but this one looks as if, when alive, it had the texture of a giant celery.

This one had some really disturbing strawlike structures inside that are creeping me out. Cork perhaps?

This one has the ghost of the tree trapped inside, going “Heeeelp meee!”

And these last two…. what the heck? I’m guessing the first one is a giant lichen and the second one is petrified slime mold or something like that.

What parts of this dinosaur are not made up? The ones in red.

Ah, my old friend, the iguanodon! I remember you from the dinosaur book I loved when I was a kid, published in the 1970s. My iguanodon back then looked like the guy on the far left. In case you can’t read the sign, it says, “These are all models of the same dinosaur.”

Next question : Triceratops. I always took its appearance for granted, ever since that same beloved dinosaur book, but now I am asking myself, What in the world did it need that huge expanse of bone for? Wasn’t it heavy? Are we sure it was all made of bone? Or was it cartilage or something lighter? Was anything attached to it … like even more expansive flaps of skin, or feathers?

This is the “death pose.” Here are some more:

Per this sign, evolutionists’ best guess about the death pose is that it’s caused by ligaments constricting as the animal begins to decay. Of course, animals that get a chance to decay don’t generally become fossils. You have a much better chance of becoming a fossil if you are suddenly buried in an anaerobic environment, such as under a giant tsunami of mud during, say, a cataclysmic worldwide flood. Which might also smash you in this position.

These different-sized femurs belong to a large herd of allosauruses (allosauri?) who were apparently all buried together.

This is pretty cool: There’s such a thing as a “brain cast” when a dinosaur’s brain gets “pickled” in peat.

Finally: Trilobites. I knew this guys existed, but I was thinking of them as basically glorified pillbugs.

I had no idea their spines were so … um … 3-D.

Will I ever be comfortable knowing these guys existed? No. No, I will not.

Thanks to the George C. Eccles Dinosaur Park in Ogden for an enjoyable afternoon feeling dwarfed by chickens and other horrors, in their pleasant air-conditioned museum!

The Final Chicken Update

Tom, you won’t be able to see this, because it’s a gif and you can never view those. It’s a short video of a man holding at bay three velociraptors … which is exactly what it now looks like when I feed my chickens.

I now wonder whether a chicken owner was behind the animatronic dinos in the Jurassic Park franchise.

Metroplex Monsters: A Book Review

This one was pure fun.

What, I ask you, could be more of a romp than a book about cryptids, urban legends and paranormal experiences, set in a metro area in which you once lived and even taking place in parks you have walked in?

Almost nothing, expect maybe gifting same on Father’s Day to your husband, who lived in said metro area longer than you did and who knows it even better.

Or, enjoying the fact that the book is illustrated in a retro, pulp-fiction style by the author, who is also a graphic artist.

All of these minor delights are now mine.

The D/FW metro area is not the first place one would think of when hearing the word “Bigfoot,” or the word “spooky.” Even as a city, it is not very attractive. The area is sprawling, and tends to be unwalkable, with wide streets, vast parking lots, hot temperatures, and glaring daylight. It gets lot of Wild West points for its cowtown/railroad/cotton growing local history (all documented in the book), but it gets almost no gothic points.

However, despite being a vast metro area, D/FW is seamed through with green spaces around the Trinity River and its tributaries. As the book points out, the brushy edge of this greenspace is so dense that it could really be called a “green wall.” As is alleged to have happened, surprisingly recently, you could drive by this “green wall” and be unaware that Bigfoot was quietly standing 40 feet from the highway.

The area also has a quite a few large lakes, such as Joe Pool Lake (I’ve been there!) and White Rock Lake (I’ve been there too!). These are man-made, created by damming various tributaries of the Trinity River. They are popular recreational areas, but also big enough and old enough to have spooky urban legends associated with them and to allow people to have hard-to-believe encounters.

Finally, because of the river system and the associated lakes, the D/FW area has a lot of large birds, such as egrets and blue herons. I can confirm that it is very common to see these feathered creatures while simply driving from place to place in the metro area. One really fascinating contention in this book is that some of these “herons” are actually, on a closer look, featherless and are in fact a kind of small pterosaur. A few people have gotten a good enough look to realize that the “heron” looked more like a lizard, but they have understandably kept quiet.

About the Author

Jason McLean, the author of Metroplex Monsters, is the founder of the SIRU papers podcast on YouTube. I found out about him, and his book, when the two of us were on yet another podcast discussing the weirder elements of the Old Testament. So, this book, while I have described it as a romp, is actually in deadly earnest. McLean traces the origins of various Dallas urban legends somewhat in the style of Snopes, though more along the lines of let’s-find-out-the-actual-history rather than whatever-it-is-we-will-debunk-it. Though you can’t tell from Metroplex Monsters alone, he has a worldview that allows for quite a few paranormal phenomena to make sense within a biblical, and entirely rational, framework. If you are interested in that sort of thing, I encourage you to check out SIRU papers (and of course, The Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser, Giants: Sons of the gods by Douglas Van Dorn, and The Scattering Trilogy by a distinguished novelist. But SIRU papers is even more hair-raising). If you are not interested in how a Christian could possibly countenance the paranormal, but just want to laugh and shake your head over how even a seemingly banal metro area like D/FW can have cryptids, feel free to read, and enjoy, Metroplex Monsters at face value.

Teal Veyre Interviews Me

Teal Veyre is really interesting thinker whose blog I’ve been following for a few years now. (She’s the angry bespectacled cartoon gal on the left.) In this episode of her Viridescent Storms book podcast, she and I talk about dinosaurs, giants, utilitarianism, worldbuilding, and of course, The Lord of the Rings. Many of the topics are ones that faithful Out of Babel-ites will recognize, but with Teal’s unique perspective, it’s all fresh! Plus, you get to hear our voices. The interview with me takes up about the first 30 minutes, and then the Storms offer a tutorial on a program called Notion and how it can be used by indie authors.

I notice that so far, the video has only one like, which is of course disgraceful. Get over there and like it and club some sense into those YouTube algorithms!